Ludwig van Beethoven ~ MBTI, Enneagram, and Socionics Personality Type

Ludwig van Beethoven ~ MBTI, Enneagram, and Socionics Personality Type

Ludwig van Beethoven

Composer

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f

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function

ennea

variant

socio

psycho

INTJ 8

INFP 1

ISTP 1

4w5 9

5w4 4

8w9 1

sx/sp 8

sp/sx 1

LII 9

ILI 5

ESI 1

LSI 1

EIE 1

SLE 1

VELF 3

FVLE 1

VLEF 1

LEVF 1

2

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4

5

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9

1

h

e

x

a

c

o

public myers-briggs votes

(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: EST

(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: INTJ

(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: INTJ

(20/05/05 16:32) shinkim717: INTJ

(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: INFP

(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: INTJ

(19/07/08 23:35) Taco110: INTJ

(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: INTJ

(19/07/08 19:22) fg: INTJ

(20/07/01 13:18) phsc: INT

(19/01/13 20:46) LVNA: INTP

(19/01/13 19:03) ResoluteSoul: INTJ

(19/07/09 06:27) tch: INTJ

(19/10/22 21:30) Jacobus: INFP

(18/07/11 07:22) scumfuc: INTJ

(19/07/25 18:30) EON: INTP

(18/05/26 01:40) strawberry crisis: INTP

public function votes

(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: ISTP

(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: INTJ

(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: INTJ

(20/05/05 16:32) shinkim717: INTJ

(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: INTJ

(19/07/09 06:27) tch: INTJ

(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: INTJ

(19/07/08 19:22) fg: INTJ

(19/07/05 19:15) phsc: INTJ

(18/11/07 17:32) Zal: INFP

public enneagram votes

(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: 8w9

(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: 4w5

(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: 4w5

(20/05/05 16:32) shinkim717: 5w4

(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: 4w5

(19/10/22 21:43) Thyssen: 5w4

(19/07/25 16:03) phsc: 5w4

(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: 4w5

(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: 5w4

(19/01/13 19:03) ResoluteSoul: 4w5

(18/07/11 07:22) scumfuc: 4w5

(18/05/31 03:59) EON: 4w5

(18/05/26 01:40) strawberry crisis: 4w5

public instinctual variant votes

(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: sp/sx

(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: sx/sp

(20/05/05 16:32) shinkim717: sx/sp

(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: sx/sp

(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: sx/sp

(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: sx/sp

(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: sx/sp

(19/07/05 19:15) phsc: sx/sp

public tritype® votes

(20/07/29 18:20) Sean91939: 541

(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: 451

(20/05/05 16:32) shinkim717: 541

(19/11/14 18:36) phsc: 514

(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: 451

(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: 541

(19/01/13 19:03) ResoluteSoul: 451

(19/01/13 18:14) Jacobus: 485

public sociotype votes

(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: SLE

(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: LII

(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: LII

(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: LII

(20/02/02 19:23) Zazu: ILI

(19/10/22 21:43) Thyssen: LII

(19/10/20 23:05) tch: LII

(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: LII

(19/07/08 19:25) phsc: LII

(19/07/08 19:22) fg: LII

(19/05/07 00:02) Avalonia: LSI

(19/03/23 07:47) Diobono: ILI

(19/01/14 18:37) LVNA: LII

(19/10/22 21:23) Jacobus: EIE

(18/12/27 17:44) switchblades: ILI

(18/10/10 21:56) strawberry crisis: ILI

public psychosophy votes

(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: FVLE

(20/08/11 13:06) Thyssen: LEVF

(20/04/16 14:48) fleetingpetals1: VELF

(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: VELF

(19/10/15 20:16) Jacobus: VELF

(19/11/14 18:43) phsc: VLEF

public hexaco votes

(20/07/01 13:20) phsc: HEXACO

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

You barely understand English, so it is possible that one of us misunderstands the other.

0
2019-11-15 01:44:57pm (post #7410)

fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST

you did not even understand what i said

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2019-11-15 01:31:39pm (post #7409)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

Beethoven was a believer in the Enlightenment, Napoleon "betrayed" the Enlightenment. That Enlightenment values are compatible with Alpha values is coincedental. Beethoven, either way, was not a typical follower of the Enlightenment and was quite the elitist (i.e. aristocratic in the Reinin sense). Beethoven saw himself as a conquering hero of music, which might explain why he originally admired Napoleon and was distressed when Napoleon declared himself emperor.

This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument.

0
2019-11-15 12:59:46pm (post #7408)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

Beethoven was a believer in the Enlightenment, Napoleon "betrayed" the Enlightenment. That Enlightenment values are compatible with Alpha values is coincedental. Beethoven, either way, was not a typical follower of the Enlightenment and was quite the elitist (i.e. aristocratic in the Reinin sense). Beethoven saw himself as a conquering hero of music, which might explain why he originally admired Napoleon and was distressed when Napoleon declared himself emperor.

This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument.

0
2019-11-15 12:59:37pm (post #7407)

phsc

Jacobus, first, I don't even know if you are being serious, if you are then no, I don't want to be your "friend", I will not change my mind on a thing that makes no sense for results which I don't even value that much, the quality of the discussion would not have gone into such childish levels if you did not start insulting me, and at least I can see I won in that aspect too, I don't really have a problem with petty arguments too, so that is a no.

Also fg, 119 of my votes are LII, in comparison, 112 are LSI and 102 are SLE, with other types having lower values, and my total vote count for socionics is 1090, thus LII is around 10.9% of my votes, LSI is 10.27% and SLE 9.3%, with also 60 EIE votes, 8.6%.

Jacobus on the other hand, has 49 EIE votes, 41 IEI, and no other type gets near in votes, out of his total of 305 votes, making EIE 16% and IEI 13.4%, then we have images that show the vote distribution for when one control Fs to search for " LII" and " EIE" (so only when something starts with LII/EIE it will appear, I did not consider the possibility of people with names starting with EIE or LII because it seems insignificant), also 15 LII votes, 4.9%.

You can see that early on there is a higher vote frequency for the specific types, and Jacobus has had a gap, but the total % is still higher for Jacobus, but that also does not consider when people change their votes, and Jacobus did change a few of his votes that were INFJ EIE 4w5 to other things that make more sense many times, also may I mention that aw hile ago was the period of time LII was more common than even when I started, so it is not a "thing first" aspect, more like general preference of topics and consumption, but in comparison, you have 73 votes for LII, 106 for LSI, 92 for SLE and 75 for EIE, 8.4%, 12.2%, 10.5%, 8.6%, respectively, out of your 868 total socionics votes.

We literally have the same % of total votes as EIE, interesting enought, while you have a higher % for LSI and SLE and lower for LII, but this can be explained by our topics of interest, and Jacobus is most often focused in arts and similar fields where IEI and EIE are more common, but even then, the comparison of that by him to LII for me, there is still a quite big difference, not considering past votes, which does mean Jacobus votes people his type more than other people, but what I really thinks makes me think that is how common it is for him to vote people 4w5 and INFJ by functions, for him that being 29 out of 44 function votes, fucking 65.9%, and 84 out of 523, 16% of his votes for enneagram, compared to my 121 INTJ votes (11.2%) and 91 INTP (8.4%, since you consider INTP my IDR type) votes out of a total of 1078 function votes, 111 votes out of 1146, 9.6% for enneagram as 5w6.

I think it is pretty clear Jacobus does vote people types similar to him more than I, you and I believe most sakinorva people vote people types similar to them, but in lower values than Jacobus, of course there can be exceptions.

0
2019-11-15 11:57:04am (post #7406)

fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST

Phsc, despite being right about your constatation about the character of Jacobus making a process of intention was not necesseary and ended up you having a pathetic individual using an argument of authority against you. Him typing mostly people that he believe to be EIE can be compared to you typing mostly people that you consider LII.it is a normal or at least comprehensible behavior to type people that you consider sharing your type first. About the character of Beethoven i would say that his typing lack of pertinence because of his lack of culture and analysis "infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni)." is his argument . But Beethoven is an artist and everyone have to be expressive and figurative in art. He is doing the same mistake as lady X, confusing the particular application of the ideal and the ideal. In comparison with Wagner (ultimate EIE), Beta in his music and in his positions it is almost impossible to defend Beethoven as EIE. The example of Napoleo that phsc use is a good example to proove that beethoven is not Beta but an Alpha. General Bonaparte was the Alpha Liberal Compatible Napoleo while Napoleo the emperor was the sublimation of Betaness spirit. For a beta (like me) the heroic General Bonaparte is good but only a step before the emperor Napoleo shows up and instaure the organicism and patriotic that the army had to the political level to make reach his country above other nations . While today Alpha and other quadra tend to split this character in two different entity, one is good one is bad, like if Napoleo was Anakin who became Darth Vader. Alpha, Gamma, Beta and Delta have a totally different conception of freedom. For a Beta Napoleo is not especially an ennemy of freedom, since freedom is considered as the ability to act of the whole and the participation of the part to the sum, since France was an Empire with an ability of action more important than it never had in history in the eye of a Beta Napoleo is the quintessence of Freedom.

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2019-11-15 01:23:24am (post #7405)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

Phsc, this pathetic and childish hysterical outburst is unbecoming of an LII. As your senior in age and wisdom, I am willing to forgive you for this little mistake and become your friend if you promise to take the stick out of your ass and accept that I am INFJ EIE VELF &tc. I imagine that continuing with these petty arguments can only lower the quality of discussion further.

Sound good?

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2019-11-14 10:32:33pm (post #7401)

phsc

I can say I have a big dick, it does not make me have a big dick, I can still value having a big dick even not valuing the uses of the dick or using the dick.

His Se-user dad kept telling him to practice and he clearly did not like that, pretty obvious I guess, he also really valued FREEDOM when composing, which of course he had, it is not an extreme Se POLR thing to value freedom of course, Se types also do, but he disliked people who limited him, he did romantize power, yes, it does not mean he valued it, when Napoleon did what an actual Se user would do which is take power and become the emperor he got angry as fuck, because he did not actually value actual Se, I'm pretty sure that if fg supported some political leader who did something like that, he would like that, same considering the EIEs I know and maybe even IEIs, which is pretty interesting how he ended up not liking Napoleon after all.

Also again, young Beethoven versus late Beethoven, two very different personalities, who are we typing? classical problem with typology polls for dead people.

I clearly do have much more typology knowledge than you, and I don't really care if that is impressive for you or not, but you do not know people better than me or better than anyone, you don't even know yourself for fucks sake, you are just repeating yourself, not wanting to do more well developed arguments because you know you will lose, you are simply not intelligent and did not control+C before sending the comment if you logged out.

But since you are going personal I guess I will show who you are:

Hi, I'm Jacobus. I don't work; I have a mother complex; I have some mood disorder that I can't quite pin down but wouldn't get treated anyway; I want to be a writer, actor, director, musician, philosopher, political theorist, and painter all at once; I've been trying to give myself visions; and I want to die before 30, or at least 40, depending on how much I get accomplished.

How ridiculous is that? everybody who has seen that just considered that ridiculous, you have this pseudo-value for fame which you won't have, you're a complete loser, you said you don't composer, you don't know actual political theory, you do know philosophy but it seems like it is all surface level, you will be a nobody in life and you already are a nobody in life, you also said you are 19 which could be a lie but if you are you truly are a failure, I'm 17 and I've been accepted in the best university in my country, I have a verified IQ of 149 (I don't believe in IQ but since you're stupid maybe you do), may I also mention that I am not weak at all, I might be physically weak but who cares, transhumanism is a thing, mentally I am wrong and much more than you, I have the capacity to refute some random stupid people online instead of insult them because of my inner insecurities and also indirectly project my failure into them (you're 6 in your tritype!), I am also quite conscious but then you truly do not know me, and from my type it is easy to achieve that, I simply correct those who are stupid, you end up fitting very well for the criteria, but even if it is narrow or rigid thinking, it is better to have that than no thinking, retard.

I think you will die before 30, out of suicide because you cannot handle the failure you are after all I believe, you kind of remind me of mike but in a cocky and more stupid version, but lets see how long you last, also may I mention you did not rewrite the comment because you start out peacefully then get aggressive later because I also did in my comment, meaning you simply wrote it while reading it part by part commenting on each, so you are lying, I guess low H on HEXACO, but you are so stupid you did not even realize that, but yeah, you just want to let me angry, but I actually like people who are inferior to me in such a level because it is simply not even a challenge, it just amazes me how better I am when compared to you in every possible criteria present here, even the social ones which it isn't even from my competence, if not even incompetence, but you being simply worse, so go live your delusional life thinking you're INFJ EIE 4w5 or something, I think you should go to a more fitting website (mbtidatabase, etc) because there people just suck whatever dick people give them and you want that, and that is the reason you are in typology communities after all, but I really don't understand why you even use this website, I guess I just don't understand stupid people that well.

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2019-11-14 09:43:38pm (post #7394)

phsc

saki double comment bug is so fucking annoying

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2019-11-14 09:43:28pm (post #7393)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

I don't see how Beethoven could have "hated" Se. Te or Si, maybe, but not Se. He had his "heroic" period and originally dedicated the Eroica to Napoleon, for fuck's sake. LIIs can be stubborn and anti-authority, sure, but that is out of (generally speaking) a democratic character that resents anyone forcing their will on others. LIIs can be stern, but they do not dominate.

As for Beethoven's view of Se, I present the following quotes:

"Power is the moral principle of those who excel others, and it is also mine."

“Courage! In spite of all bodily weaknesses my spirit shall rule."

"[Two of his friends are] ...merely instruments on which to play when I feel inclined."

"I want to seize fate by the throat."

All of these are from when he was younger, and may be more reflective of moods than consistent beliefs, but they are surely not the words of a person with Se-PoLR. Beethoven loved power, and admired those with stronger Se than he.

You have more knowledge of music theory than I do, that I will admit. Perhaps typological theory as well, but that's hardly impressive. What I can say with certainty is that I know people far better than you do. But, writing all this out is boring and a waste of time (especially now that I had to type this out again from memory after being logged out while writing it), so I'll stop here instead of providing a proper response to your usual wall-of-text. I will add one more thing, however, since you continue to invent these pseudo-psychological fictions for me: you are a weak nobody conscious of having nothing of worth to give to the world, and so you present yourself as a sort of arbiter of trivia online and throw little fits whenever someone diverges too far from your rigid and narrow way of thinking.

Oh, and here are those epubs, in which Beethoven's valuing of Fe and Ni, and undervaluing of Si, are consistently demonstrated:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D00C4C3A9F636859B68E3EC5EFA38E5E

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7A90698614FF0A3B9B55818679616ADE

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2019-11-14 08:53:18pm (post #7391)

phsc

Yes Jacobus everybody is EIE 4w5, I think you're trolling at this point just to get me angry, didn't you say you were going to leave the website?

Ok, you've skimmed two of his biographies, first of all Beethoven was mostly a rebel because he really disliked Se as a whole, probably out of traumatic experience with his dad who would make him practice a lot, the "rebel" aspect of Se POLR for LII is literally one of the stereotypes for LII in the wikisocion composite article, Beethoven was emotionally unstable but literally any type under similar situations would have been, also really, I am curious about the source for that second part, because he has always been described as a closed off person, maybe not as much when younger, heavily introverted and with a general lack of close people to him, to the point he kind of obsessed over I believe his nephew, but then he was quite old, he was emotionally expressive and EIE is the only type, ever, that can be emotionally expressive, like no other type can even express emotions! turns out you have a very weird view of logical types, ILI is very not expressive but LSI and even LII can be at times, depending on the situation and his clearly favored such behaviour, but link me the biographies (as in PDFs for me to read), may I also mention that behaviour does change and young Beethoven would be typed vastly different from later Beethoven.

But his music does not show his personality like that at all, first of all most of Beethoven's music aren't really all about that, most of his FAMOUS AND CONSTANTLY PLAYED PIECES are like that, yes when he was starting to go deaf he did compose the Moonlight Sonata which is extremely expressive but after all he used music theory concepts to show that, unlike people more like Mozart who kind of used it as a very simple basis and played around with the basics, music theory is not as simple as people think, I recommend Harmony by Arnold Schoenberg who is clearly a 5 but then you have him as a 4 but your votes are almost always completely ridiculous anyway so... not surprising, but most of his stuff is pretty... boring for most people, you take the Eroica, most people think it is boring when compared to lets say his 5th symphony, now you take some random quite complex fugue by Bach and compare it to the BWV 565 that MIGHT have been made by him, turns out most people will prefer the second, just take a look at the unplayed works of composers, Wagner has intensity and emotional expression in basically all of his works, Beethoven does not, Bach does not, hell even Chopin does not (I've seen some people type him as LII but I doubt it, I believe the guys from worldsocionics), but this is also not a bigger aspect in his late periods because the fucker was deaf, listen to the Große Fuge, is that emotional expression? that is his late work, mostly logical and methodical, he also was deeply perfectionistic and his composing process shows that very well, Bach is also not LSI and yet LII, but then all you keep talking about is Fe and Ni, what about other functions? I doubt Beethoven valued Se, Ni as demonstrative works perfectly for what you are saying too, music itself is an extreme form of expressing aspects correlated with Fe, which of course might make someone look more Fe-ish.

Also your psyche yoga vote is ridiculous, he was clearly insecure with E, clearly not with L and he did not ignore it (music theory Jacobus, ever heard of it?), but I agree he could have been V first and F last is obvious, enneagram wise I believe that the core fear of the 5 really speaks up here, competence, from when he was a kid, his composing process really shows that, also may I mention that you must also refute everything said before for MBTI as by letters if you believe everything Beethoven did was out of pure feeling which I believe you are implying, also he clearly was tritype 1, he was all about competence and got angry easily (not an 8 trait, a 1 trait, by definition, part of the core fear, you seem to really get this wrong, another example is Newton), and not about pure control, and even then if pure control one can say that 5 to 8 by the enneagram dynamics thing and even then he was not the natural leader kind, which is a big aspect of 8 which you also seem to ignore.

But then I really don't think anyone cares, I kind of hope you will reply to this because last time you literally just ignored my comments explaining your type and instead you said what I predicted you would do in it because you didn't even read it, almost all of your votes are ridiculous and sometimes I think you're just some retarded 4 who just wants to vote things out of the norm to seem different or get attention or something, which also fits your general behaviour a few times, but then, I actually think EIE is not a completely ridiculous type for him, but a casual reminder is that, if Fe is all about emotional expression, considering the online behaviour and methods of reacting, I am much more expressive than you and so is fg, which is quite ironic, isn't it?

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2019-11-14 06:36:25pm (post #7390)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

I've skimmed through two seperate biographies of Beethoven (Swafford and Solomon, respectively) and could find no justification for him being either LII or 5w4. He was quite pronouncedly an EIE 4w5, albeit an awkward and somewhat insecure one. His unusual public behavior was not done in ignorance or complete disregard of social standards, but were dramatic and consciously done acts in which he played the part of a rebel, at least partly. LII, ILI, and LSI types can have emotional disorders, but not in the way that Beethoven displayed his. Beethoven was completely expressive in his emotions (he was noted for his passionate and emotive eyes, for example). He zealously sought intimacy and developed a large number of close friends, although these were often broken off quickly as a result of Beethoven's suddenly changeable moods. He was absolutely not a restrained personality, but overbearing and gregarious, especially with friends and close acquaintances.

It's his music that is especially demonstrative of his personlity. Beethoven's music shows a seemingly infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni). This is particularly true of the late period (such as the Missa solemnis or his 15th String Quartet). An LII composerwould be practically the opposite, focusing on a rigorous intellectualism or rigid perfectionism instead. Bach (likely LSI) is viewed by those relatively unknowledgable of classical music as being emotionless is due to how muted Fe is in his music. Beethoven is possibly only outdone by Wagner (a devotee of Beethoven, and the 9th Symphony in particular) in terms of Fe musical dramaticism.

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2019-11-14 05:04:35pm (post #7389)

strawberry crisis enfp 7

I don't know what the context is for "spontaneity" weighed against "rigor" in your context, fg, but it's important to keep in mind that perceiving will not translate to spontaneous in every sense of the word because they really aren't the same thing. MBTI Step II names a subfacet of J/P called spontaneous vs. scheduled, and it aims to separate an attitude that is routine-bound and predecided from one that does whatever it wants whenever it wants. I noticed, like lvna, that you mention "artistic creation," and I feel like he hits the nail on the head when he says that this one part of him may not necessarily reflect his being as a whole. A lot of artists have this actually, where they may be extremely deliberate, careful, methodical, and perfectionistic about their work, but it doesn't actually reflect much on their full character. This is really because many artists see their output as work, where their subservient devotion to their art is not really a product of their supposed rigorous lifestyle but just one that happens to be necessary—something that needs to happen. Creative styles can bend around "needing things to happen" without really demanding that from anywhere else in life, just like Beethoven when he decided not to care about presentability or consistency in his daily life. Based on whatever I could find on the Internet, it seems there was no "genuine" demand on Beethoven's part for the closure a schedule or a set of rules would bring him. It seems like he was okay with letting things go in his daily life and didn't care about customs, norms, rules, and regulations.

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2019-01-14 08:24:43pm (post #4626)

LVNA

Stick with your conclusion if you will, but at least acknwoledge you are doing exactly what I'm warning against. There is nothing original about your manner of typing for a philosopher, and doesn't even properly integrate the warnings of Nietzsche on hoisting the abstract always above the real. Like so many other philosophers, you jeapordize not just the human soul and our view of it collectively by defining it in terms that the makers of culture will accept and hold all humans too, but the way you interact with people. I truly hope this is not how you look at others in life upon meeting them, that would be to have a brown thumb in the aspect of the human and of tending to the garden of humanity! Let your soul awash with the colors of the plants, let the luscious paradise of the world outside colonize your soul and live like the ivy plant, who entwines itself along the apple tree knowing to look beyond its fruit and to gaze down at it with appreciation, a mix of thirst for its contents, and devotion to the sky you are destined to climb towards. Only then will you see the garden from above in its grandeur: the flowers of all different colors, now lacking the perspective of difference in height from the surrounding garden will rear mosaic to your thirsty lips, and then you must love all the colors and carry them within yourself, as the contents of your internal vision ans you continue to rise up towards the sun.

"

Red Sun On
The horizon line.
It's pure delight.
As The night falls upon my eyes
I am running wild.
When there's none to hold me tight
I seek the light.
Red Sun On
The horizon line
I am short of time.

The shadows here before my eyes
Still I am full of light
The heart among
The heart of man
Can you hear the sound?

The sweet echoe though the yard
The sweet echoe through the land
It's making that sound
It's touching the ground
Now it's reaching for the sky."

Love to you my friend, night and day, love to you.

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2019-01-14 06:56:53pm (post #4624)

fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST

P is relied with spontaneity. Beethoven was the contrary of spontaneous (he is used as the example of rigor>spontaneity in human all human. that's as simple as that. to describe him Nietzsche used the huge amount of his musical draughts to describe him.

2
2019-01-14 06:47:59pm (post #4622)

LVNA

..."Is laughable to anyone who is interested into art and readed a little about artistic creation." The problem with this argument is that it immediately jumps to conclusions of psychologism in order to type, i.e., investigating the psychological background of the creation of a piece of art instead of the context within the person's life in which it was created. Because of this, it is almost as far as possible from analyzing the person within the context of themselves and their life beyond art. It's true, their manner of artistic creation can't be divorced from their personality, looked at on a holistic level, but what you are doing is what many function magicians do...zeroing in on a particular part of a person and, as Nietzsche would have said, elevating the abstracted meaning above all else in life.

It's interesting that you use Nietzsche's observations as a standard here. Let's remember that if we look at Nietzsche in a manner of psychologism he himself is a mixed type between Ti and Ni. Nietzsche, while quite open-minded and many times deriding of what we would consider full Ti dominance, that is, using abstracted categories to define reality, looked at people generally through a very Ti lens. We only have to think of the Ubermenschen here, or his equating of people with certain archetypes etc. to see that Nietzsche used people as golden standards of concepts. What I will grant you is this: yes, Beethoven, in Jung's world and therefore Nietzsche's too should be identified as an Introverted Thinking dominant type, and therefore too an LII. But how does that make it impossible for him to be a Perceiver? You can't lose perspective on the whole of his behavior, and even though dimensional analysis only grasps at a sheer fraction of this whole, if we look into it in regards to Beethoven we can only emerge with I N T P. Sure, Nietzsche categorized Beethoven as someone who drew into himself until the volcano erupted and he had to express outwards in a very proctored way, but even that we might see as a P-ish use of a Ti type. It's explosive, randomized, etc. and the only heuristic it sticks to is the internal one, which can't even be articulated.

@Jacobus, stop typing everyone beta. It's ridiculous. It's not the ubermenschen quadra.

1
2019-01-14 06:34:50pm (post #4621)

fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST

sorry guys, but your typing of Beethoven as exemplar of P is laughable to anyone who is interested into art and readed a little about artistic creation . he is the example used by Nietzsche against the myth of spontaneous inspiration in Human, All Too Human.

0
2019-01-14 06:00:43pm (post #4620)

strawberry crisis enfp 7

To add to that, some good examples of J composers are Bach, Stravinsky, Bartok, and Dvorak. Debussy, Beethoven, Mozart, and Prokofiev are good examples of P composers.

I don't think anyone could deny that they were all geniuses and visionaries in some respect--each of their biographies makes a note of their being passionate, creative, and prodigious. There is, however, a pattern between these J composers that revolves around perseverence, deliberation, and discipline that is largely absent from the more "freeform" personalities those P composers have.

0
2019-01-14 08:23:18am (post #4617)

edza ENTJ 8w7 SLE

@Jacobus "dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement" seems a lot more like xNFP. Beethoven, however, had the passion of a Feeler and not much else F-wise. He had bottled up intense feelings but in MBTI that's very compatible with being a T.

NPs are usually the kind of visionaries who break out of structures by creating new pathways, getting movements kick started. Especially in music I feel like INTJs are more technical, structured (Brahms would be a good example).

Not sure what you're getting at with Nietzsche and Kant either. Nietzsche is sort of a borderline INxx type while Kant was pretty much a token example of INTJ. Of course, count on IDR Labs to mess stuff up by trying to force Jung into MBTI classifications in counter-intuitive ways.

1
2019-01-14 06:50:59am (post #4616)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

what ridiculousness

0
2019-01-14 05:12:31am (post #4613)

strawberry crisis enfp 7

Keirsey turned Myers-Briggs into archetypes that belong to temperaments, which would really be less distanced from what you're using (archetypes) than what I'm using (separated axes).

A person can be of extremely erratic and disorganized behavior and still be a J function-wise… function-wise being the key word. Myers-Briggs has very little to do with the functions, and whatever it did have to do with them was eventually dropped because Myers couldn't come up with either a theoretical link or an observational link between her typing system and that particular sect of Jungian psychology (regarding his four functions).

Beethoven's dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement is much in line with INTJ… only functions-wise. Beethoven's rebelliousness and refusal to mold to whatever restricted him--be they rules, customs, or regulations--points only to P. Being dramatic, egotistical, and visionary has nothing to do with MBTI J when isolated that way, and "INTJ" to you might not really have that much to do with Myers-Briggs INTJ either.

And I think that's fine so long as that INTJ you're talking about isn't supposed to be a 1-to-1 translation to MBTI INTJ (where J would mean something divorced from an archetype). It would just belong in the IDR column.

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2019-01-14 02:54:02am (post #4612)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

That's a rather Kierseyite interpretation isn't it? A person can be of extremely erratic and disorganized behavior and still be a J function-wise. Beethoven's dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement is much in line with INTJ. He's much more like Nietzsche than Kant, for example.

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2019-01-13 11:26:13pm (post #4610)

strawberry crisis enfp 7

I don’t really understand. A bipolar INTJ — just like how that INTP over there is an ENTP with avoidant personality disorder? Myers-Briggs isn’t that deep. Let’s just call things they way they are: if he eats, sleeps, and breathes like a perceiver, he’s probably a perceiver.

I do, however, understand that some people can be kind of hard to type in MBTI because they don't really fit its mold very well, but I really wouldn't extend this to Beethoven's behavior because he's "unstable" only in one direction along the J/P axis, and that would be toward P.

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2019-01-13 09:46:43pm (post #4607)

Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE

That all reads like something a bipolar INTJ would do though

0
2019-01-13 06:14:13pm (post #4599)

strawberry crisis enfp 7

In Prince Lichnowski's house in Vienna, where he lived, he was said to be stubborn. He would deliberately arrive late at meal times and he paid little attention to the way he dressed. But Beethoven was right; time for a creative artist in not marked out by the hands of a clock. Today any one of Betthoven's works is worth more than all the clocks in the world.

It can be said of Ludwig van Beethoven, especially from the time of his arrival in Vienna, that he was a young man of strong personality and at times quite difficult to get on with. Both his teachers and his patrons attest to this. He was also a person of noble ideas. He was very well respected in the circles in which he moved though his treatment of moralists and critics could nevertermed as being of a polite nature.

Once, when Beethoven was at the church of the Elector he had to provide piano accompaniment to certain sections of "The Lamentations ofIremiah" in a given key. This was during Holy Week 1785. He sought permission to change key and the singer agreed. The youngster then gave the new keynote with one finger and with the other hand played a series of complicated improvisations. The singer lost the keynote in the cadence. The other musicians were astonished by Beethoven's brilliance, but the singer got extremely angry and complained to the Elector. As a result, the young Ludwig was given a serious telling off for being cheeky.

Posterity has tended to stylize Beethoven as a musical titan, battered and buffeted by fate. But his contemporaries, his letters and the notebooks he used to communicate during the last years of his life portray him as a humorous man who loved to eat and drink,as a slovenly and rebellious tenant, a sensitive artist and a gruff but warm-hearted friend.

As a youngman Beethoven was frank to the point of rudeness. Headstrong and proud, he was never willing to conform in his behaviour... As he grew older and deafness overrtook him, the negative aspects of Beethoven's personality came to the fore. He was increasingly given to bouts of despair, the difficulties of communication made him more reserved, and he became more suspicious and distrustful of others.

Ludwig van Beethoven refused to be treated like a servant. He is considered a transitional figure from the classical to romantic periods not only because of his music, which threatens to break all classical constraints at times but never does, but because of his view of his music and his status in society. His music was art. His status was that of the greatest living composer. As such, he was not one to be treated as a mere servant. He demanded to be paid what he felt he was worth, and would often withhold compositions if the person who commissioned it did not pay him the agreed-upon amount.

In Harold Schonberg’s Lives of the Great Composers, Schonberg has this to say about these two musical geniuses (and I’m quoting from memory here, so if anyone owns this book and can provide me with the actual quote–in the chapter on Beethoven–I would greatly appreciate it):
   While Mozart would timidly knock at the servants’ entrance,
   waiting to gain admittance, Beethoven would kick down the
   front doors, sit at the head of the table, and demand to
   be served.

A nature like his is today called insanity in the layman (invariably ignored), eccentricity in the wealthy (invariably encouraged), and artistic temperament in the composer (invariably accepted). His personal conduct could be very embarrassing. He was seen returning to a ballroom still buttoning up his trousers from a lavatory visit. Late in life he spoke of Napoleon, using very explicit language. He once threw a chair at a prince - very determined behavior, considering the nobleman was one of Beethoven's own patrons and was helping to support the composer financially. His usual disregard of conventional, external considerations often caused friction and conflict with everyone - neighbors, janitors, servants, friends, landlords, waiters, and aristocrats.

(It should be clear here that he's not J, and nor is he F)

1
2019-01-13 06:04:53pm (post #4598)

EON INFP

Another genius voted INTP ?

It actually makes sense tough.

0
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