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Ludwig van Beethoven
Composer
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public myers-briggs votes | (22/11/04 00:24) GIJOEBusta Cap: INTJ |
(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: EST |
(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: INTJ |
(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: INTJ |
(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: INFP |
(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: INTJ |
(19/07/08 23:35) Taco110: INTJ |
(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: INTJ |
(19/07/08 19:22) fg: INTJ |
(19/01/13 20:46) LVNA: INTP |
(19/07/09 06:27) tch: INTJ |
(19/10/22 21:30) Jacobus: INFP |
(18/07/11 07:22) scumfuc: INTJ |
(19/07/25 18:30) EON: INTP |
(18/05/26 01:40) strawberry crisis: INTP |
public function votes | (22/11/04 00:24) GIJOEBusta Cap: INTJ |
(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: ISTP |
(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: INTJ |
(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: INTJ |
(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: INTJ |
(19/07/09 06:27) tch: INTJ |
(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: INTJ |
(19/07/08 19:22) fg: INTJ |
(18/11/07 17:32) Zal: INFP |
public enneagram votes | (22/11/04 00:24) GIJOEBusta Cap: 4w5 |
(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: 8w9 |
(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: 4w5 |
(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: 4w5 |
(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: 4w5 |
(19/10/22 21:43) Thyssen: 5w4 |
(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: 4w5 |
(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: 5w4 |
(18/07/11 07:22) scumfuc: 4w5 |
(18/05/31 03:59) EON: 4w5 |
(18/05/26 01:40) strawberry crisis: 4w5 |
public instinctual variant votes | (22/11/04 00:24) GIJOEBusta Cap: sx/sp |
(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: sp/sx |
(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: sx/sp |
(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: sx/sp |
(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: sx/sp |
(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: sx/sp |
(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: sx/sp |
public tritype® votes | (20/07/29 18:20) Sean91939: 541 |
(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: 451 |
(19/08/23 15:16) Thyssen: 451 |
(19/07/09 00:58) LadyX: 541 |
(19/01/13 19:03) ResoluteSoul: 451 |
(19/01/13 18:14) Jacobus: 485 |
public sociotype votes | (22/11/04 00:24) GIJOEBusta Cap: LII |
(20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: SLE |
(20/07/29 18:19) Sean91939: LII |
(20/05/05 16:38) KashifIrfanBhatti: LII |
(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: LII |
(20/02/02 19:23) Zazu: ILI |
(19/10/22 21:43) Thyssen: LII |
(19/10/20 23:05) tch: LII |
(19/07/09 03:34) Taco110: LII |
(19/07/08 19:22) fg: LII |
(19/05/07 00:02) Avalonia: LSI |
(19/03/23 07:47) Diobono: ILI |
(19/01/14 18:37) LVNA: LII |
(19/10/22 21:23) Jacobus: EIE |
(18/12/27 17:44) switchblades: ILI |
(18/10/10 21:56) strawberry crisis: ILI |
public psychosophy votes | (20/11/10 03:13) Flower-like: FVLE |
(20/08/11 13:06) Thyssen: LEVF |
(20/04/16 14:48) fleetingpetals1: VELF |
(20/04/16 03:50) sweetphasmagloo: VELF |
(19/10/15 20:16) Jacobus: VELF |
public hexaco votes |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() ![]() 2019-11-15 01:44:57pm (post #7410) |
fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST![]() ![]() 2019-11-15 01:31:39pm (post #7409) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument. ![]() 2019-11-15 12:59:46pm (post #7408) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() This seperation of pre-imperial and post-imperial Napoleon is ridiculous, Napoleon was always an SLE and explicitly used Se throughout his military and political careers. If Beethoven hated Se he would have never supported the French Revolution in the first place, much less hero-worshipping Napoleon. Clearly, fg, you are looking at things retrospectively rather than through the lens of the time. Regardless, Vladimir Lenin was the same type as Napoleon and he wrote about Napoleon as a traitor to the revolution, so your apparent belief that a Beta would never disapprove of Napoleon's actions is still a poor argument. ![]() 2019-11-15 12:59:37pm (post #7407) |
fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST![]() ![]() 2019-11-15 01:23:24am (post #7405) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() Sound good? ![]() 2019-11-14 10:32:33pm (post #7401) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() As for Beethoven's view of Se, I present the following quotes: "Power is the moral principle of those who excel others, and it is also mine." “Courage! In spite of all bodily weaknesses my spirit shall rule." "[Two of his friends are] ...merely instruments on which to play when I feel inclined." "I want to seize fate by the throat." All of these are from when he was younger, and may be more reflective of moods than consistent beliefs, but they are surely not the words of a person with Se-PoLR. Beethoven loved power, and admired those with stronger Se than he. You have more knowledge of music theory than I do, that I will admit. Perhaps typological theory as well, but that's hardly impressive. What I can say with certainty is that I know people far better than you do. But, writing all this out is boring and a waste of time (especially now that I had to type this out again from memory after being logged out while writing it), so I'll stop here instead of providing a proper response to your usual wall-of-text. I will add one more thing, however, since you continue to invent these pseudo-psychological fictions for me: you are a weak nobody conscious of having nothing of worth to give to the world, and so you present yourself as a sort of arbiter of trivia online and throw little fits whenever someone diverges too far from your rigid and narrow way of thinking. Oh, and here are those epubs, in which Beethoven's valuing of Fe and Ni, and undervaluing of Si, are consistently demonstrated: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D00C4C3A9F636859B68E3EC5EFA38E5E http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=7A90698614FF0A3B9B55818679616ADE ![]() 2019-11-14 08:53:18pm (post #7391) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() It's his music that is especially demonstrative of his personlity. Beethoven's music shows a seemingly infinite expressiveness (Fe) with obscure, almost impenetrable poetic qualities (Ni). This is particularly true of the late period (such as the Missa solemnis or his 15th String Quartet). An LII composerwould be practically the opposite, focusing on a rigorous intellectualism or rigid perfectionism instead. Bach (likely LSI) is viewed by those relatively unknowledgable of classical music as being emotionless is due to how muted Fe is in his music. Beethoven is possibly only outdone by Wagner (a devotee of Beethoven, and the 9th Symphony in particular) in terms of Fe musical dramaticism. ![]() 2019-11-14 05:04:35pm (post #7389) |
strawberry crisis enfp 7 ![]() ![]() 2019-01-14 08:24:43pm (post #4626) |
LVNA ![]() " Red Sun On The horizon line. It's pure delight. As The night falls upon my eyes I am running wild. When there's none to hold me tight I seek the light. Red Sun On The horizon line I am short of time. The shadows here before my eyes Still I am full of light The heart among The heart of man Can you hear the sound? The sweet echoe though the yard The sweet echoe through the land It's making that sound It's touching the ground Now it's reaching for the sky." Love to you my friend, night and day, love to you. ![]() 2019-01-14 06:56:53pm (post #4624) |
fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST![]() ![]() 2019-01-14 06:47:59pm (post #4622) |
LVNA ![]() It's interesting that you use Nietzsche's observations as a standard here. Let's remember that if we look at Nietzsche in a manner of psychologism he himself is a mixed type between Ti and Ni. Nietzsche, while quite open-minded and many times deriding of what we would consider full Ti dominance, that is, using abstracted categories to define reality, looked at people generally through a very Ti lens. We only have to think of the Ubermenschen here, or his equating of people with certain archetypes etc. to see that Nietzsche used people as golden standards of concepts. What I will grant you is this: yes, Beethoven, in Jung's world and therefore Nietzsche's too should be identified as an Introverted Thinking dominant type, and therefore too an LII. But how does that make it impossible for him to be a Perceiver? You can't lose perspective on the whole of his behavior, and even though dimensional analysis only grasps at a sheer fraction of this whole, if we look into it in regards to Beethoven we can only emerge with I N T P. Sure, Nietzsche categorized Beethoven as someone who drew into himself until the volcano erupted and he had to express outwards in a very proctored way, but even that we might see as a P-ish use of a Ti type. It's explosive, randomized, etc. and the only heuristic it sticks to is the internal one, which can't even be articulated. @Jacobus, stop typing everyone beta. It's ridiculous. It's not the ubermenschen quadra. ![]() 2019-01-14 06:34:50pm (post #4621) |
fg xxTJ 6w5 Beta ST![]() ![]() 2019-01-14 06:00:43pm (post #4620) |
strawberry crisis enfp 7 ![]() I don't think anyone could deny that they were all geniuses and visionaries in some respect--each of their biographies makes a note of their being passionate, creative, and prodigious. There is, however, a pattern between these J composers that revolves around perseverence, deliberation, and discipline that is largely absent from the more "freeform" personalities those P composers have. ![]() 2019-01-14 08:23:18am (post #4617) |
edza ENTJ 8w7 SLE![]() NPs are usually the kind of visionaries who break out of structures by creating new pathways, getting movements kick started. Especially in music I feel like INTJs are more technical, structured (Brahms would be a good example). Not sure what you're getting at with Nietzsche and Kant either. Nietzsche is sort of a borderline INxx type while Kant was pretty much a token example of INTJ. Of course, count on IDR Labs to mess stuff up by trying to force Jung into MBTI classifications in counter-intuitive ways. ![]() 2019-01-14 06:50:59am (post #4616) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() ![]() 2019-01-14 05:12:31am (post #4613) |
strawberry crisis enfp 7 ![]() A person can be of extremely erratic and disorganized behavior and still be a J function-wise… function-wise being the key word. Myers-Briggs has very little to do with the functions, and whatever it did have to do with them was eventually dropped because Myers couldn't come up with either a theoretical link or an observational link between her typing system and that particular sect of Jungian psychology (regarding his four functions). Beethoven's dramatic, egotistical and visionary temperement is much in line with INTJ… only functions-wise. Beethoven's rebelliousness and refusal to mold to whatever restricted him--be they rules, customs, or regulations--points only to P. Being dramatic, egotistical, and visionary has nothing to do with MBTI J when isolated that way, and "INTJ" to you might not really have that much to do with Myers-Briggs INTJ either. And I think that's fine so long as that INTJ you're talking about isn't supposed to be a 1-to-1 translation to MBTI INTJ (where J would mean something divorced from an archetype). It would just belong in the IDR column. ![]() 2019-01-14 02:54:02am (post #4612) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() ![]() 2019-01-13 11:26:13pm (post #4610) |
strawberry crisis enfp 7 ![]() I do, however, understand that some people can be kind of hard to type in MBTI because they don't really fit its mold very well, but I really wouldn't extend this to Beethoven's behavior because he's "unstable" only in one direction along the J/P axis, and that would be toward P. ![]() 2019-01-13 09:46:43pm (post #4607) |
Jacobus INFJ 4w5 EIE![]() ![]() 2019-01-13 06:14:13pm (post #4599) |
strawberry crisis enfp 7 ![]() It can be said of Ludwig van Beethoven, especially from the time of his arrival in Vienna, that he was a young man of strong personality and at times quite difficult to get on with. Both his teachers and his patrons attest to this. He was also a person of noble ideas. He was very well respected in the circles in which he moved though his treatment of moralists and critics could nevertermed as being of a polite nature. Once, when Beethoven was at the church of the Elector he had to provide piano accompaniment to certain sections of "The Lamentations ofIremiah" in a given key. This was during Holy Week 1785. He sought permission to change key and the singer agreed. The youngster then gave the new keynote with one finger and with the other hand played a series of complicated improvisations. The singer lost the keynote in the cadence. The other musicians were astonished by Beethoven's brilliance, but the singer got extremely angry and complained to the Elector. As a result, the young Ludwig was given a serious telling off for being cheeky. Posterity has tended to stylize Beethoven as a musical titan, battered and buffeted by fate. But his contemporaries, his letters and the notebooks he used to communicate during the last years of his life portray him as a humorous man who loved to eat and drink,as a slovenly and rebellious tenant, a sensitive artist and a gruff but warm-hearted friend. As a youngman Beethoven was frank to the point of rudeness. Headstrong and proud, he was never willing to conform in his behaviour... As he grew older and deafness overrtook him, the negative aspects of Beethoven's personality came to the fore. He was increasingly given to bouts of despair, the difficulties of communication made him more reserved, and he became more suspicious and distrustful of others. Ludwig van Beethoven refused to be treated like a servant. He is considered a transitional figure from the classical to romantic periods not only because of his music, which threatens to break all classical constraints at times but never does, but because of his view of his music and his status in society. His music was art. His status was that of the greatest living composer. As such, he was not one to be treated as a mere servant. He demanded to be paid what he felt he was worth, and would often withhold compositions if the person who commissioned it did not pay him the agreed-upon amount. In Harold Schonberg’s Lives of the Great Composers, Schonberg has this to say about these two musical geniuses (and I’m quoting from memory here, so if anyone owns this book and can provide me with the actual quote–in the chapter on Beethoven–I would greatly appreciate it): While Mozart would timidly knock at the servants’ entrance, waiting to gain admittance, Beethoven would kick down the front doors, sit at the head of the table, and demand to be served. A nature like his is today called insanity in the layman (invariably ignored), eccentricity in the wealthy (invariably encouraged), and artistic temperament in the composer (invariably accepted). His personal conduct could be very embarrassing. He was seen returning to a ballroom still buttoning up his trousers from a lavatory visit. Late in life he spoke of Napoleon, using very explicit language. He once threw a chair at a prince - very determined behavior, considering the nobleman was one of Beethoven's own patrons and was helping to support the composer financially. His usual disregard of conventional, external considerations often caused friction and conflict with everyone - neighbors, janitors, servants, friends, landlords, waiters, and aristocrats. (It should be clear here that he's not J, and nor is he F) ![]() 2019-01-13 06:04:53pm (post #4598) |
EON INFP ![]() It actually makes sense tough. ![]() 2018-05-31 03:58:56am (post #872) |
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